Posts by Disillusioned JW

7

Major ABC news article JW'S in Russia

by Bill Covert in

jw
friends

if someone can post an abc news article on forum, i lack the computer skills.

please read.

the main point was nobody is able to figure out motive for persecution.

Disillusioned JW

I was still an active believing JW when the Soviet Union collapsed. After persecution of JWs ended in the former Soviet Union I noticed that some JWs from the USA took trips to visit Russia. I considered that foolish. I didn't trust Russia (and I still don't trust Russia). I thought there was a strong likelihood that the Russian Federation would start persecuting JWs again. I see that I was right about that.

20

"Resurrection" or "Re-Creation of The Soul"? What do really JW's teach?

by EdenOne in

interesting find through a book "inside story of jehovah's witnesses" (1967) by w.c. stevenson, supposedly a former jw circuit overseer.

it's an interesting "apostate" perspective written prior to the wts 1975 debacle.. anyway, at a certain point, there's a quote from a book called "the four cults", by professor anthony a. hoekema (1963, william b. eerdmans publishing company), a calvinist, which makes some sharp remarks about the way jehovah's witnesses teach the dead coming back to life:.

1) in the case of those "resurrecting" for everlasting life on earth, one asks: if the soul is extinct at death, and the body disintegrates and its components are integrated into other forms of life, what is there to "resurrect"?

Disillusioned JW

The WT's teaching on the resurrection is muddled for they sometimes say that a person's life force (upon death of the person's body) goes back to Jehovah and later (upon resurrection of the person) goes into the new body, while at same time implying that the attributes of the life force includes consciousness (and thus indirectly implying it like an immortal soul/spirit). They also use the phrase "life force" in a similar way in describing what happened to Jesus when the life force of Jesus (according to the WT) entered the embryo of the human Jesus in the womb of Mary.

You see, sometimes they describe the life force as being merely a force (or energy), and/or a type of 'spirit' (but not in the since of a being) which animates humans and nonhuman animals to make them breathers and alive, while at other times the WT implies that the life force is also conscious (in the case of humans and of humans resurrected/recreated to life as spirit beings).

The WT incorporates some of the ideas of atheists and freethinkers (ideas that existed even since the late 1700s) into some of their doctrines. The WT also incorporates numerous ideas of infidels (in the irreligious sense of the word) in their attacks upon that which they call Christendom and false religion.

20

"Resurrection" or "Re-Creation of The Soul"? What do really JW's teach?

by EdenOne in

interesting find through a book "inside story of jehovah's witnesses" (1967) by w.c. stevenson, supposedly a former jw circuit overseer.

it's an interesting "apostate" perspective written prior to the wts 1975 debacle.. anyway, at a certain point, there's a quote from a book called "the four cults", by professor anthony a. hoekema (1963, william b. eerdmans publishing company), a calvinist, which makes some sharp remarks about the way jehovah's witnesses teach the dead coming back to life:.

1) in the case of those "resurrecting" for everlasting life on earth, one asks: if the soul is extinct at death, and the body disintegrates and its components are integrated into other forms of life, what is there to "resurrect"?

Disillusioned JW

Sea Breeze, I notice you wrote that the WT wants "... to make double sure no one gets saved from the KH." Those words you wrote are astonishing to me. Do you really believe that? I know the WT has numerous incorrect teachings, that is deceptive, and that it has told some intentional lies, but do you really believe it is trying to prevent people from obtaining salvation (with it at the same time also believing there is a way for more than 144,000 people to obtain salvation)?

Do you think that the Bible verse of Matthew 23:13 can correctly be applied to them? The verse in the NKJV says ' “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.' The wording of the verse in the Amplified Bbile is ' “But woe (judgment is coming) to you, [self-righteous] scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven in front of people; for you do not enter yourselves, nor do you allow those who are [in the process of] entering to do so.'

Do you consciously think the WT's leaders and/or its writers consciously worship Satan the Devil and are trying to do his bidding? Please tell me. I can see how some might get that idea due to the following: Russell having formerly been a skeptic (perhaps you believe he also secretly such while he was a part of the WT organization), Rutherford claiming he formerly had been an atheist (perhaps you believe he was also secretly an atheist while he was a part of the WT organization), the WT's former use of Greber's NT, their recommendation of the book Angels and Women, their teaching that the people of Christendom's churches are unwittingly worshiping Satan the Devil, and their teaching that the human leaders of all the human governments are unwittingly under the control of Satan the Devil.

Rutherford wrote that Satan created false forms of Christian worship in order to get people to unwittingly worship Satan and to prevent people from worshiping Jehovah and from obtaining salvation. Do you think that Rutherford was secretly doing that, that which he claimed that others instead were doing?

156

Remembering Rutherford

by Sea Breeze in

he seems to me to be the angriest and most ill-tempered of all the wt presidents, especially after his stint in prison and failed prophecies.. “regarding his misguided statements as to what we could expect in 1925, he [rutherford] once confessed to us at bethel, “i made an ass of myself.”” watchtower 1984 oct 1 p.24.

rutherford died at beth sarim on january 8, 1942, at the age of 72.

[220] cause of death was...carcinoma of the rectum..."[21] .

Disillusioned JW

I invite JWs reading this site to consider the following.

In contrast to the negative message about college (and seminary education) which Rutherford wrote in his Children book (copyright 1941), he wrote positive things about college (and public/common education in general) in his Harp of God book (copyright 1921, edition of 1928). The positive message about education (and an increase of knowledge) is on pages 237 - 238 (in Chapter IX called "Our Lord's Return"). There it says the following (as transcribed at http://www.strictlygenteel.co.uk/harp/harp9.html ).

'402 When, that time should arrive, what was to be expected? Jehovah answers: "Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." (Daniel 12:4) From and shortly after 1799, the date of the beginning of "the time of the end", we should expect to find an increase of knowledge, particularly with reference to the Bible. Prior to that time the people had been kept in ignorance of the Bible. It was the practice of the Papacy to forbid any one aside from the clergy class to have access to the Bible; in fact, it was made a crime under the Roman law, subjecting the offender to heavy penalties for having in possession a copy of the Bible. In 1799 the beastly power of Rome, predominated by the Papal system, received a deadly wound. The people had been taught to believe in the divine right of kings to rule and the divine right of the clergy to dominate the conscience of the people. When Napoleon took the Pope a prisoner and carried him away to France, and when later he refused to permit the Pope to crown him as king, but put the crown on himself and treated the Papal claimed authority with contempt, this began to open the eyes of the peoples of earth, kings as well as people, to the fact that Papacy did not possess the divine right it claimed.
403 A short time thereafter the first Bible societies that ever existed were organized. The British and Foreign Bible Society was established in 1803; the New York Bible Society, in 1804; the Berlin-Prussian Bible Society, in 1805; the Philadelphia Bible

238
Society, in 1808; and the American Bible Society, in 1817. The Bible was translated and published in many different languages and sold at such low prices that the poor could have access to it, and within a short time millions of Bibles were in the hands of the people. The Papal system denounced these Bible societies as "pestiferous Bible societies". The time had come, however, for an increase of knowledge and the Lord was fulfilling his promise by putting it within the reach of those who were hungry for truth. The people began to learn that God is no respecter of persons; that kings and popes, priests and the common people alike must all render their account to the Lord and not to man.
404 From that time forward there has been a great corresponding increase of knowledge in all the sciences; and in fact, in all lines of learning. The common school, always opposed by the Papacy, has afforded a means of general education and increase of knowledge for people in all walks of life. Colleges and universities have sprung up throughout the world. With the increase of knowledge on various lines have come the numerous inventions that man now has, time and labor-saving machines, etc.'

I invite readers to ask themselves the following questions?

Did Rutherford believe in what he wrote (and copyrighted in 1921) about colleges and universities, in his Harp of God book? If so, did he later change his view to that which he stated in his Children book (and copyrighted in 1941)? Did he ever really completely believe that which he wrote in the Children book about college education and seminary education (see an earlier post of mine)?

In determining your answers to the above questions, consider the following words of Charles Taze Russell from Volume V of his Studies in the Scriptures series (as transcribed at http://www.strictlygenteel.co.uk/atonement/atonetitle.html from an edition published in 1915 of his book copyright in 1886).

'Christian people are becoming more and more awake to the fact that a great tidal wave of unbelief is sweeping over Christendom; — not the blasphemous atheism voiced by Thomas Paine and Robert Ingersoll, but the cultured kind represented in the scholarship of our day, which makes the danger all the more insidious.

Not only are the great Colleges and Seminaries undermining the faith of the better educated, but the Common School books, and especially those used in the High Schools, are similarly inculcating a distrust in the Bible, a contradiction of its teachings. For a college graduate of to-day to declare his faith in the inspiration of the Scriptures would bring upon him the scorn of his companions — a scorn which few would court, or could endure. At very best, a few will be found to claim that they believe that Jesus and his Apostles were sincere, though they blundered in quoting from the Old Testament as inspired.

Such a belief in Jesus and his Apostles is no belief at all; for if present-day "higher critics" are wise enough to know when and where our Lord and his Apostles! erred in their quotations from the Old Testament, then these wise men of our day are our proper guides, — more inspired than Jesus and his Apostles.

Our Society, realizing the need, is seeking to do all in its power to stem the tide and lift up the Lord's "standard for the people." It has prepared six sets of Bible Studies (of which this volume is one) for Christian people of all denominations to use in lending a helping hand to all perplexed inquirers with whom they may, by God's providence, come in contact. These are supplied at bare cost, and can be had direct from the Society's warerooms or of its colporteurs, who are gradually reaching forth these helping hands far and near. These valuable "studies" are supplied at little more than one penny each; — 15 of them well bound in a cloth case, embossed in gold, for 1s.'

I have read from Russell's volumes of his Studies in the Scriptures and for me personally they (volumes 1 through 6) are not very interesting. In contrast, to me some of the books written by Rutherford are much more interesting (but some other books by Rutherford are very offensive to me and have an exceptionally angry tone), though not necessarily more correct in what they say.

156

Remembering Rutherford

by Sea Breeze in

he seems to me to be the angriest and most ill-tempered of all the wt presidents, especially after his stint in prison and failed prophecies.. “regarding his misguided statements as to what we could expect in 1925, he [rutherford] once confessed to us at bethel, “i made an ass of myself.”” watchtower 1984 oct 1 p.24.

rutherford died at beth sarim on january 8, 1942, at the age of 72.

[220] cause of death was...carcinoma of the rectum..."[21] .

Disillusioned JW

I agree that they brought the persecution upon themselves. Numerous WT books claim that governments attack the JW religion because of the JWs preaching Christ's kingdom. But the JW kingdom message includes the false message that the kingdom began in the year 1914 with Christ ruling invisibly in heaven and that Christ will soon destroy all human governments, and that all of the human governments are under the control of Satan and a part of his evil system.

34

What Did You Think Of The Songs Sung At The Kingdom Hall?

by minimus in

jw
friends

when i was younger we had song books and i recall that some of the songs were pretty catchy.

then they revised it took some of those songs out, and added more.

i have to admit some songs were pretty good.

Disillusioned JW

hours ago

Davros, I found the lyrics of your favorite song in the 1966 song book. It is song 105 and is called "This Is Jehovah's Day!" In reading the words of that song I now think it was my favorite JW song and that the "We Are Jehovah's Witnesses" song was my second favorite JW song, or perhaps tied with it. Song 105 (195 in 1984 song book) is one in which I memorized much of the lyrics while I was a JW.

I also liked the lyrics of the chorus of songs 11, 13 (33 in 1984 song book), 59 (112 in 1984 song book), and 76 (143 in 1984 song book) of the 1966 song book.

1

New on JW website

by HawayMan in

how many lies, half truths and deceptions can you count in these questions.

.

https://www.jw.borg/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/.

Disillusioned JW

I presume you mean ".org" instead of ".borg" (https://www.jw.borg/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/ is not an actual web page). A great pun and great point. I first when I say the link you posted I thought it was of a non-JW website, an actual website, about the Jehovah's Witnesses.

34

What Did You Think Of The Songs Sung At The Kingdom Hall?

by minimus in

jw
friends

when i was younger we had song books and i recall that some of the songs were pretty catchy.

then they revised it took some of those songs out, and added more.

i have to admit some songs were pretty good.

Disillusioned JW

Davros, I loved that song also. It was probably my second favorite song from the 1984 song book (and 1966 song book?). A new version of it (with the words you quoted) appears at https://www.jw.org/en/library/music-songs/sing-out-joyfully/23-jehovah-begins-his-rule/ .

34

What Did You Think Of The Songs Sung At The Kingdom Hall?

by minimus in

jw
friends

when i was younger we had song books and i recall that some of the songs were pretty catchy.

then they revised it took some of those songs out, and added more.

i have to admit some songs were pretty good.

Disillusioned JW

My most favorite WT song while I was a believing JW was the one which said "We are Jehovah's Witnesses", from the 1960s and 1984 song books. I even memorized its entire lyrics by heart - and to this day I still remember a considerable portion of the lyrics verbatum. Even though now I am an ex-JW (unofficially) and an atheist, I still really love that song.

However portion of the lyrics of that song are now different (see https://www.jw.org/en/library/music-songs/sing-out-joyfully/63-we-are-jehovahs-witnesses/ ). Compare the wording from the 1984 "Sing Praises" song book (Song 113: We Are Jehovah’s Witnesses!; see https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101984133 ) with the current one (https://www.jw.org/en/library/music-songs/sing-out-joyfully/63-we-are-jehovahs-witnesses/ ) and Song 31: We Are Jehovah’s Witnesses! (see https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102009117 ) of the 2009 song book. I like the 1984 one much more, but maybe that is due to familiarity.

Stanza 2 of the 1984 says:

" ‘You’re my witnesses,’ God said.

‘Other gods you need not dread.

I am God Jehovah,

Sov’reign Lord and Head.

I both saved and showed to you

When no other gods you knew.

Keep publishing my name near and far;

Prove that my witnesses you are.’ "

In contrast stanza 2 of the 2009 song book says:

"Proudly we declare God’s name,

Bearing witness to his fame.

News about his Kingdom,

Boldly we proclaim.

Others thus may come to see

Truth from God that sets them free.

As they grow strong, their voices they’ll raise,

Joining with us to sing his praise."

Note also that the 1984 song includes a quote (at least partially) from the Bible but the 2009 one and the newer one (called "We're are Jehovah's Witnesses") from the song book called ' “Sing Out Joyfully” to Jehovah' do not.

156

Remembering Rutherford

by Sea Breeze in

he seems to me to be the angriest and most ill-tempered of all the wt presidents, especially after his stint in prison and failed prophecies.. “regarding his misguided statements as to what we could expect in 1925, he [rutherford] once confessed to us at bethel, “i made an ass of myself.”” watchtower 1984 oct 1 p.24.

rutherford died at beth sarim on january 8, 1942, at the age of 72.

[220] cause of death was...carcinoma of the rectum..."[21] .

Disillusioned JW

In one of Rutherford's books I noticed that Rutherford lumped court judges as being a part of what he considered to be Satan's evil organization on Earth (or at least said court judges are bad in some way), yet Rutherford billed himself as a court Judge. It seems that he tried to have it both ways. Perhaps he was making a joke on intelligence of the JWs, by calling himself a Judge while in some literature saying judges are bad.

In at least one book Rutherford (while using the word Nazi) sharply criticized the German Nazi government and thus made a strong political statement against not only a specific government but also against a specific political party. He even specifically criticized Hitler by name. In other literature he praised Hitler and Hitler's German government, while sharply criticizing Jews of the USA (specifically New York, New York?) and USA commerce (and/or big business). All of these statements were published by the Watch Tower (or Watchtower), yet the Watchtower claims it has always been politically neutral. That claim of always having been politically neutral is a bold faced lie, unless perhaps they were only making the claim about the Watchtower magazine and not the Watchtower organization. [I don't know if the Watchtower magazine itself broke political neutrality.] But maybe even the Watchtower magazine made criticisms of the Nazi government. I know that the Gold Age magazine (or the Consolation magazine) had at least one cartoon image which poked fun (and criticized) the Nazis.

In some literature Rutherford praised the Jewish people in general, ones living in his time, but in other literature he did the opposite.

How reliable do some his claims seem to you and how sincere does he seem to you in light of the above information?